Zoë Kravitz and Matt Reeves on ‘The Batman 2’s’ Slow Writing Process, Casting Channing Tatum and Robert Pattinson on Instinct, and Why Editing Is More Painful Than Directing

When Zoë Kravitz first met Matt Reeves about playing Selina Kyle, aka Catwoman, opposite Robert Pattinson in “The Batman,” she was two years into writing what would become her feature directorial debut. Born from Kravitz’s “rage towards men in power,” “Blink Twice” — renamed from the original “Pussy Island,” for obvious reasons — follows Frida (Naomi Ackie) as she falls into the orbit of tech billionaire Slater King (Channing Tatum) and is whisked away to his private island, where the opulent, never-ending party atmosphere belies a far more menacing reality. A few months after the film’s summer release, Reeves sits down with Kravitz, armed with questions for the actor turned filmmaker about her experience behind the camera. Kravitz also gets her once and future director talking about his process — and sharing updates on “The Batman Part II” and the future of the HBO spinoff “The Penguin,” which Reeves executive produced.

Zoë Kravitz: I remember when we first met. I came to your office, and you talked to me about “The Batman.” You had instructed me to not read the script yet, because you wanted to pitch me the world, show me visuals and talk to me about your references.

Matt Reeves: Wait, but we met again, is that right? Because I don’t remember the first meeting. In the second meeting, you came in with all of these amazing ideas — that’s what I remember.

Kravitz: I did. I then read the script, and it was very helpful to know what you were going for beforehand.

Reeves: You were talking about the idea of her collecting strays. I was like, “I do love that idea, but I don’t know how we’ll ever get that line in.” And you go, “Oh, that’s so easy. You just have him look down at the cats and go, ‘Got a lot of cats.’” It is one of my favorite moments in the movie. So it’s not surprising to me that you’ve done such an incredible job with your first film, because the ideas that you were coming in with were just smart. Did you always know that you wanted to direct?

Kravitz: No. I don’t think I even allowed myself to admit that that was something I wanted to do. Especially as a woman, when you love film, you’re told, “Oh, cute, you should be an actress.” No one says, “Little girl, you love movies? You should be a director.” But when I’m on set, I’m always watching and learning.

Reeves: That’s what I remember. We were both in the pursuit of this thing — you were someone who I could say to, “Let’s look at the monitor. Let’s search for the moment.”

Kravitz: You actually rocked my world with that idea. You invited me into the process. Specifically, Selina, it’s such a physical role and I was able to get away from the anxiety of watching myself. I would notice things that I would think no one else would notice, and then you would come up talk about that exact thing, and it made me feel less crazy. You’re an incredibly meticulous filmmaker. I just asked you how it’s going with writing [“Part II”] and you said, “Slow,” and I think that’s a wonderful quality, because you care so much.

Reeves: It’s wonderful, except for the speed of getting something done. The thing is that for me, I feel like it’s not a choice. I always feel like I would never do it the way I’m doing it, except that that’s the only way I know how to do it. The metaphor that I use when I’m talking to my partners is that writing and filmmaking is like being in a dark room. Everything you need is in the room, but there are no lights, and you’re on hands and knees. And when something connects, you go, “Oh, that’s something.”

Kravitz: Yes! And it leads to something else.

Reeves: I did an episode of “Homicide: Life on the Streets.” I was about to do “Felicity,” and I was like, “I better figure out how to do TV.” On day three, I thought, “I don’t think I can have a career if I use this much energy watching.” I put so much energy into “Is this good yet? Is that working?” I realized I can not know the answer, but just know that’s not it yet.

Kravitz: How do you feel about casting? Especially when you’re doing a superhero film where there’s been so many other versions.

Reeves: I had to find a personal way into Batman and then think about how somebody could bring something personal to me. You’re always looking for an internal life that’s going to take what this story is and make us feel like you’re getting a glimpse into what this person’s struggle is. It’s weird: To be totally honest, when I was writing, I was thinking of Rob.

Kravitz: It just popped into your head?

Reeves: Well, I just started thinking about the children of Princess Diana, and the idea of being this orphaned prince. For some reason, I don’t know why, that made a connection to Kurt Cobain for me. And then somewhere in there, someone told me to watch [the 2017 Robert Pattinson movie] “Good Time.” And I was like, “That’s the only person I could imagine as this Batman. I don’t think that I know what it is if it’s not him.” It was weirdly fated, because it turned out that he was obsessed with Batman.

How did you arrive at your cast?

Kravitz: Channing was the first person I thought of for Slater King, and I don’t know where that came from, similar to you. I knew that the character needed to be somebody who we think we trust, especially because you don’t believe Naomi is getting on that plane if it’s someone who is immediately insidious. I wanted to weaponize his charisma. We’ve never seen him do something like that.

And then with Naomi, I knew I needed someone’s face to be so expressive, because so much about that character is about her face saying one thing and her eyes saying another, and that’s a hard thing to do. We had a meeting. I had seen enough of her work where I just knew that she was capable. She understood on a fundamental level what the movie was.

Reeves: I think of the shooting period as a hunting-gathering period, and when you’re done, you rewrite again in the editing. What was editing like for you?

Kravitz: Oh, my God, I was in edit for almost two years. I was warned, you watch your assembly and you are just ready to …

Reeves: You want to kill yourself.

Kravitz: I wanted to put myself in the trash. It was really rough. It did not work for a very long time.

Reeves: What struck you about what didn’t work?

Kravitz: The story felt all over the place. There was a lack of tension. Because I have so many characters, you don’t know who to be connected to and who you are following. I realized the more you try to control a film and make it what you think it was, the worse it will be. It’s like having a child and saying, “You’re going to be straight, a doctor and live in Connecticut.” You have to allow it to show you what it wants to be. Once I let that go and listened to it, it really fell into place. But you have to let your idea die.

Reeves: Do you think the essence is what you were after from the beginning?

Kravitz: I actually think it ended up being closer to what I wanted, but I didn’t understand it yet or something. I also had this incredible blessing that everyone’s wearing the same thing every day. So I realized this is like documentary footage. I can just rip this apart, and I did.

Reeves: How did you start to rebuild it?

Kravitz: There were many different versions of it. I got very lucky, because we had finished the film — it still wasn’t working, but it was time to stop — and then the strike happened. So I had this break, and I realized that I had completely lost perspective. I took a step back and watched some of my favorite films and kind of let go for a second. I said to my editor, “Don’t tell the studio, but I’m going to restructure the entire movie.”

Reeves: You want to keep doing this, obviously. What do you think is next?

Kravitz: I do. I love it. Thrillers have always been what I was interested in, but then part of me is like, “I should just do a rom-com and see what happens.” And you’re writing [“The Batman Part II”] right now?

Reeves: Yeah, we’re finishing the script. We’re going to be shooting next year.

Kravitz: And more of these shows? Everyone’s freaking out over “The Penguin.”

Reeves: Yeah, we’re talking to [showrunner] Lauren [LeFranc] about doing another season. That was a special experience. I just feel really fortunate. These characters don’t belong to me; they belong to the world. It comes down to whether you can approach them in a way that expresses something personal.

Kravitz: I think that’s why the marriage between you and Batman right now is such an incredible combination. You have this skill at working with heightened ideas. They all feel so human and so grounded. And it’s a very difficult thing to do.