Co-showrunner Neil Druckmann didn’t leave HBO’s “The Last of Us” on a whim. The head of PlayStation’s Naughty Dog video game studio left because he’d accomplished the “crazy goal” he set out to when adapting his critically acclaimed and widely beloved video game franchise for television.
“Our goals for the show — I had multiple goals, some of them were selfish. I wanted to elevate ‘The Last of Us’ beyond the people that have played the game,” he told Variety in an interview this week ahead of Sunday’s Emmy Awards. “I felt like that story could find a bigger audience for people that will never play video games. I wanted to elevate Naughty Dog, and PlayStation has been a home for me for 21 years now, and it’s given me all the support to tell these wonderful stories, and I wanted to elevate video games. It was such a crazy goal, but I wanted someone to watch this show and have no idea it was based on the video game, and then be like, ‘Wait, that’s based on a video game?’”
Druckmann announced he was stepping away as co-showrunner on “The Last of Us” in July, following the show’s Season 2 finale and its Season 3 renewal. The finale reached 3.7 million viewers, and the second season had higher average viewership than Season 1. This Sunday, it’s nominated for outstanding drama series, best actor for Pedro Pascal and best actress for Bella Ramsey at the Emmys.
“We have this data: People have watched the show and have come back and bought a PlayStation or bought it on PC and have played ‘The Last of Us,’ and that has become this gateway for them, for this medium that I love so much,” he said. “But it was really hard work, and I was really there in the weeds to get Season 1 off the ground, and then it was important to get [Season 2 and the storyline for] game 2 off the ground as well, because I love that story so much. But now I felt like the path has been set for it. It was time to go back to the thing that started it all, which is just full-time video game work. But other things are coming and we can announce more things soon.”
In leaving Craig Mazin as sole showrunner on the series, Druckmann wasn’t headed to a new job, but rather going back to his full-time gig as the chief at one of PlayStation’s most prized studios, where he’s currently working on its next big game, “Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet.”
“Naughty Dog is bigger than any one person. There’s been a lot of big personalities that have come through Naughty Dog, and while I was working on the show, there were a lot of people that have stepped up: Matthew Gallant (game director), Claire Carré (narrative director), Kurt Margenau (game director), Alison Mori (studio manager). They really allowed me to do this other thing for a while and help set up this show.”
With Variety, Druckmann discussed his exit from “The Last of Us” and teased Naughty Dog’s next game, “Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet.”
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How do you feel going into the Emmys on Sunday?
Awards season is always interesting. I’m just excited to see a bunch of people I haven’t seen in a while, like different department heads, Pedro, Bella. Just trying to have this moment where we celebrate this achievement, and how hard everybody worked on this thing and one more chapter in “The Last of Us” book that I’m living.
How do you compare the awards scene for games versus the awards scene for TV?
Oh, there’s just different vibes. Games are more lowkey, a little nerdier, more my speed, I guess. I feel more comfortable there. But I enjoy the spectacle of it, and just seeing everybody just dress up and the chaos of it. I just took my my parents to the Humanitas Awards and that was a lot of fun, so I might bring one of them to the Emmys as well.
When you were looking at “The Last of Us” Season 2 and what you wanted to submit for the Emmys, what were the episodes you most wanted to showcase and how did you decide?
There’s a whole awards department within Warner Bros. and HBO to think about it, which is also very different from games. Naughty Dog on our own might consult a little bit with PlayStation, but we just try to put what we feel like is appropriate out there. But it’s very intense in Hollywood as far as awards and all that, so I let the experts figure that out.
We were very proud of the season that we put together. I think the standout episodes were 202 and 206 and those were submitted to a bunch of different categories, but it was just nice to see, obviously, Pedro and Bella getting nominated. In particular, I enjoyed Kaitlyn and Joey “Pants” [Pantoliano], who I worked very closely with in Episode 206, “The Price.” I really loved what he brought to the character, and that was kind of a surprise, because I wasn’t quite sure. With Joel and Ellie, you can more visualize it, and it’s pretty close to what you have in your head. With Eugene, it was completely surprising, and I was kind of blown away by what he did.
At what point during “The Last of Us” Season 2 process — if it was during publicity, or when exactly — did you decide that you were going to step away and come back to Naughty Dog full-time?
It was right when we were about to start the writers’ room for Season 3. I looked at what’s in front of me, what would the next season might look like, and with all the various “Last of Us” things I’m working on — not just the show — with all the various games I’m working on, the biggest one that takes up most of my time is “Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet,” our next big IP for Naughty Dog and PlayStation, it felt like I could better serve all of my responsibilities if I stayed at a higher level. It was quite challenging to be as involved as a co-showrunner on Season 1 and Season 2, while running a studio and working and directing and writing a game. I really appreciated at Naughty Dog how many people stepped up while I was gone working on Season 2. Specifically, I spent quite a bit of effort on Episode 206 — prepping it, writing it, directing it. I wasn’t sure if I’d be able to do that again. So I felt it around that period when we’re wrapping up all the press and really about to get started with earnest in Season 3, that was a good time to reassess everything.
I don’t blame you. I don’t know another video game studio head who is also a co-showrunner on a series.
I don’t know if I’d recommend it (laughs). I will say I did really enjoy it, and I took a lot away from it. I joked that I went to the best film school by working on the show, and I got to just really collaborate with incredible artists. There’s a lot that I learned, even just as far as the craft of making cinematic storytelling. There’s so much that overlaps with my work at Naughty Dog that I felt like I took quite a bit away from that. I think I could better serve this show and other adaptations like it in the future, having learned all this stuff — but my first responsibility, my first love, is video games, and it’s at Naughty Dog.
Going into Season 3 of “The Last of Us,” is there any way you’re going to be involved? Have you talked to Craig Mazin about different storylines, or advised at all, especially if there was any specific backlash to Season 2 that you all looked at to address or consider something you could do different in Season 3?
We had started talking about what is left to adapt back when we were working on Season 2, because we knew we would not be able to finish it and we were gonna end on a cliffhanger. As I was saying earlier, my job now is to stay very high level. As much as I miss getting into the weeds and working on the effects shots and giving script notes and really getting into the details of it, I’m trying to just shepherd it. My hope for Season 3, and what I’d like to I think I can best contribute to it, is to make sure it’s as deeply faithful as Season 1 was. Because I feel like that is the gold standard for this kind of adaptation, while enjoying all these beautiful expansions that happen naturally with the rest of the team and how they’re working on Season 3. So that is where my involvement will stay is at that very, very high level.
So turning to “Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet.” That was a huge announcement for you all out of the Game Awards last December. You’ve said Naughty Dog has been working on it since 2020 — where you are in the process right now, and will we see or hear more about it at one of PlayStation’s upcoming State of Play presentations?
What can I say and not say? I can tell you we’re in the thick of it. We’re making it, we’re playing it. We’re firing on all cylinders. I’ve said this before, but I really mean it, I’m really feeling it right now: It’s the most ambitious game we’ve ever made. It’s the most expansive game we’ve ever made, maybe the most expensive, by the time we finish it. Troy [Baker] is in the game, and it’s been five years since I’ve worked with Troy, and I’ve got to do it again, and it was a lot of fun to be on the stage with him again.
As far as when we’re going to show stuff, I’m so antsy to show it and talk about it because the trailer that we showed doesn’t even scratch the surface of what this game actually is. But announcing a game like this, especially when it’s new IP, especially when it’s coming out of Naughty Dog, you’ve got to coordinate with marketing, with PR, with a bunch of people. So it’d be foolish for me to say when we’re gonna show something right now.
You’ve described “Intergalactic” multiple times now as having “the deepest gameplay” in Naughty Dog’s history. Can you tease that out a little bit more?
I’m not sure that I can. You could look at our previous titles and see the evolution of going from “Uncharted,” where we’re really cutting our teeth on realistic character-action game, third-person shooter, combined with emotional storytelling. With “The Last of Us,” we added some RPG elements, we started playing with wide linear layouts. Continue that trajectory forward, add sci-fi and you start to get the sense of what we’re doing, and then we’ve gotten even more ambitious than that. So really looking forward to see how it all comes together. I think you’re all going to be pleasantly surprised by it.
I was really excited to see Tati Gabrielle’s casting reveal as the lead for “Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet.” How did that casting come about?
We were already writing for a long time. It’s very hard to make a sci-fi game, especially from a writing standpoint and compared to “Uncharted” or “The Last of Us,” because those are — despite the infected and the supernatural elements of “Uncharted” — they’re very grounded. Here, we have to not only come up with the universe and what are the rules of the universe? What’s this history? Because we’re jumping 2,000 years in an alternate future. We also have to figure out the lore of this planet, Sempiria, that Jordan, our hero, ends up on and has to work to escape from.
So I had some idea of who the character was. But the way we write in games, a little bit different from the show, is that we outline for a really long time and make all these documents and backstories, but try to save writing scripts for as long as possible, because the big unknown is gameplay. Gameplay is often very theoretical, and then you try to implement it, and you have to run experiments and prototypes and then see what works, what doesn’t work, and sometimes the things that don’t work or do work will dictate the kind of story you can tell. So you don’t want to get attached to a bunch of details that then you have to throw away and try to stay very high level.
We were kind of at that stage when we started talking to Tati. That came about because we had just cast her in Season 2 [of “The Last of Us”], and just got the idea that she might be perfect for this role. Then when she showed up, she came by Naughty Dog, I pitched her the story as it was at the time, and we kind of walked through it beginning, middle, end and explained what her role would be. I asked her if she’d be willing to audition, and she was. We had her on stage, and I asked Troy to come in and read with her, so she read against Troy Baker. We were just very confident that is our Jordan A. Mun.
Ever since then, I’ve been writing with her. Just like when I worked with Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker on “The Last of Us,” and how much they influence the characters, she has been just as influential in the writing and the thinking of this character her arc, and I believe she’s gonna be very iconic and complex and interesting in the Naughty Dog tradition.
Are you looking at any other “The Last of Us” Season 1 or Season 2 stars to bring into the “Intergalactic” cast?
Well, I worked with Tony Dalton on Episode 206, he played Joel’s dad, and immediately when I finished shooting we had this role for “Intergalactic.” I DM’d him on Instagram, like “Hey, man, I don’t know if you’ve done video games before or performance capture, but I think you’d be perfect for this. Do you mind jumping on a Zoom call? I just want to show you something.” We jumped on a Zoom call, and I showed him parts of the game, and I talked to him about it. He’s like, “Yeah, I’m in. I’d love to do it.” So Tony Dalton is there, and maybe there’s a few more.
“Uncharted” has been adapted, obviously, “The Last of Us” has been adapted. Are you in talks for adapting “Intergalactic” for TV or film now — because this would be the first time that you’re in a position to try and plan for both the game and the adaptation from the beginning?
There’s just ongoing conversations around “Uncharted,” “The Last of Us” and now “Intergalactic,” as far as different adaptations or expansions. With “The Last of Us,” we did a graphic novel, for a while we were working on movie that didn’t work out and it became a TV show. And there’s more stuff happening in “The Last of Us” world that has not been announced. But we have already had studios approach us with about “Intergalactic” — just having seen the trailer, they don’t know much about the game.
I want to make sure we don’t put the cart in front of the horse. This needs to be a fantastic video game first, and then if that happens and we have the right partnership, those opportunities would be great. But that’s not why we do what we do. So there’s a lot of ideas of what we could do with “Intergalactic,” and in some ways it’s easier to expand that because it’s just how that story is structured in that universe. So there’s some interesting conversations happening about potential projects that could come down in the future, but our priority right now is to make “Intergalactic” the next big, fantastic Naughty Dog game.
“Intergalactic” was announced as a new franchise. So does that mean Naughty Dog’s focus moving forward is on additional “Intergalactic” games after “Heretic Profit,” or is there a chance you do “The Last of Us 3,” or a new “Uncharted” game next?
We don’t tend to plan too much in the future, because we find — and this is something I inherited, it’s just the Naughty Dog culture — that we do our best work when it’s something we’re really excited about, really passionate about. Just to give you an example, when we finished “The Last of Us Part II,” and that was highly successful for us, we were debating whether we should just go straight into “The Last of Us 3,” and we had a really long period where we looked at ideas for maybe what could be in that game. We looked at — we have “Uncharted” as an IP, we have “Jak and Daxter” as an IP. But the team was really excited to do this sci-fi thing that we’ve been talking about for a while, and that’s where our passions lie, so that’s where we’re moving forward. I’m sure if “Intergalactic” is successful, you will see it again. Whether that will be our next game right after that, I can’t say, and I leave that door open. Not to be coy for this particular question, we want to see how we feel once we’re done with it and look at the options in front of us, because we have some other ideas that we’d like to explore as well.
Should there be more TV or film adaptations of Naughty Dog projects in the future, would you again take on a lead creative role on one of those, and is there a plan in place for Naughty Dog if you step away from day-to-day at the studio for a time again?
I’ve always struggled just focusing on one thing. That’s just the way my brain is. So I’m always juggling multiple things. That’s how I find that inspiring and invigorating to jump from thing to thing to thing. When I was back in my wee days, when I was a designer on “Uncharted” and the writer on that game, that wasn’t enough. So I would go home and I would write graphic novels. I wrote a graphic novel that got published, but I also wrote this other graphic novel that got rejected and later became “The Last of Us.”
With the show, my hope is that we’re going to end this story in a deeply faithful way, in the same way that we started and that’ll be the end for this version of the story. But that’s not the end of “The Last of Us” for Naughty Dog. That doesn’t mean necessarily that’s going to happen indoors or outdoors — we’re in talks to do multiple things. Likewise, I’m sure “Intergalactic” will present an opportunity. So I’m sure I will wear multiple hats, like I have in the past. But my main responsibility for the foreseeable future, as long as they’ll let me keep doing it, is to make games here at Naughty Dog.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
From Variety US